Journals of the Senate
52 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2003, Canada
Journals of the Senate
2nd Session, 37th Parliament
Issue 89
Monday, October 27, 2003
2:00 p.m.
The Honourable Daniel Hays, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Banks, Beaudoin, Biron, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chaput, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Day, De Bané, Doody, Downe, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finnerty, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Graham, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Kelleher, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kolber, Kroft, LaPierre, Lapointe, Lavigne, LeBreton, Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Massicotte, Meighen, Merchant, Milne, Moore, Morin, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Plamondon, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Ringuette, Rivest, Robertson, Robichaud, Roche, Rompkey, Smith, Spivak, St. Germain, Stollery, Stratton, Tkachuk, Trenholme Counsell, Wiebe
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Banks, Beaudoin, Biron, Callbeck, *Carney, Carstairs, Chaput, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Day, De Bané, *Di Nino, Doody, Downe, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finnerty, *Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Graham, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Kelleher, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kolber, Kroft, LaPierre, Lapointe, Lavigne, LeBreton, Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Massicotte, Meighen, Merchant, Milne, Moore, Morin, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Plamondon, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Ringuette, Rivest, Robertson, Robichaud, Roche, Rompkey, Smith, Spivak, St. Germain, Stollery, Stratton, Tkachuk, Trenholme Counsell, Wiebe
PRAYERS
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some Honourable Senators made statements.
DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Tabling of Documents
The Honourable the Speaker pro tempore informed the Senate that the Clerk of the Senate had tabled the following:
Statement of the Clerks Receipts and Disbursements for the Year Ended March 31, 2003, pursuant to Rule 133.—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-758S.
Tabling of Reports from Inter-Parliamentary Delegations
The Honourable Senator Fraser tabled the following:
Report of the Canadian Group of the Inter-Parliamentary Union respecting its participation at the 107th Inter- Parliamentary Conference and related meetings, held in Marrakech, Morocco, from March 16 to 23, 2002.—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-759.
Notices of Motions
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Losier-Cool moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Corbin:
That the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages have power to sit at 5:00 p.m. today, after the standing vote, even though the Senate may then be sitting, and that Rule 95(4) be suspended in relation thereto.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Bills
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Day, seconded by the Honourable Senator Harb, for the third reading of Bill C-25, An Act to modernize employment and labour relations in the public service and to amend the Financial Administration Act and the Canadian Centre for Management Development Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Gauthier moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fraser:
That the original question be now put.
After debate,
With leave of the Senate and pursuant to Rule 30, the motion was withdrawn.
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Gauthier tabled the following:
Letters from the Prime Minister of Canada concerning Bill C-25, dated September 26, 2003.—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-760S.
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Day, seconded by the Honourable Senator Harb, for the third reading of Bill C-25.
After debate,
In amendment, the Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kelleher, P.C., that the Bill be not now read a third time but that it be amended in clause 230, on page 249, in the French version,
(a) by replacing line 32 with the following:
"saire, commissaire délégué et employés de''; and
(b) by replacing line 34 with the following:
"les commissaire et commissaire délégué sont''.
After debate,
The question was put on the motion in amendment.
With leave of the Senate, a standing vote was deferred until 3:30 p.m. tomorrow, with the bells to sound at 3:00 p.m. for thirty minutes.
Second reading of Bill C-48, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (natural resources).
The Honourable Senator Moore moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, that the Bill be read the second time.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Bill was then read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Moore moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, that the Bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Wiebe, seconded by the Honourable Senator Maheu, for the second reading of Bill C-37, An Act to amend the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Bill was then read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Wiebe moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Banks, that the Bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., for the second reading of Bill C-17, An Act to amend certain Acts of Canada, and to enact measures for implementing the Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention, in order to enhance public safety
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stratton, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Order was called for the second reading of Bill C-49, An Act respecting the effective date of the representation order of 2003.
A Point of Order was raised with respect to the long title of the Bill.
Debate.
DEFERRED VOTE
At 5:00 p.m., pursuant to the Order adopted October 23, 2003, the Senate proceeded to the taking of the deferred standing vote on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Graham, P.C., for the second reading of Bill C-34, An Act to amend the Parliament of Canada Act (Ethics Commissioner and Senate Ethics Officer) and other Acts in consequence.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Bacon, Banks, Biron, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chaput, Cook, Cordy, Day, De Bané, Downe, Fairbairn, Finnerty, Fraser, Graham, Hubley, Jaffer, Kenny, Kolber, LaPierre, Lapointe, Lavigne, Léger, Losier-Cool, Mahovlich, Massicotte, Merchant, Milne, Morin, Pearson, Phalen, Plamondon, Poulin, Poy, Prud'homme, Ringuette, Robichaud, Roche, Rompkey, Smith, Trenholme Counsell, Wiebe—43
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Atkins, Beaudoin, Cochrane, Comeau, Doody, Forrestall, Johnson, Kelleher, Keon, Kinsella, LeBreton, Lynch-Staunton, Meighen, Nolin, Robertson, Spivak, St. Germain, Stratton, Tkachuk—20
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Cools, Corbin, Ferretti Barth, Gauthier, Joyal, Maheu—6
Accordingly, Bill C-34 was read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stratton, that Bill C-34 be not now read a third time but that it be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was negatived on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Atkins, Bacon, Banks, Beaudoin, Cochrane, Cools, Corbin, Ferretti Barth, Forrestall, Joyal, Kelleher, Kinsella, Kroft, LeBreton, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Meighen, Moore, Nolin, Prud'homme, Robertson, Spivak, Stratton, Tkachuk—26
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Biron, Callbeck, Carstairs, Cook, Cordy, Day, De Bané, Downe, Fairbairn, Finnerty, Fraser, Graham, Hubley, Jaffer, Kenny, Kolber, LaPierre, Lapointe, Lavigne, Massicotte, Merchant, Milne, Morin, Phalen, Poulin, Poy, Ringuette, Robichaud, Rompkey, Smith, Trenholme Counsell, Wiebe—32
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Mahovlich, Pépin, Plamondon—3
The Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., that Bill C-34 be referred to the Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Biron, Callbeck, Carstairs, Cook, Cordy, Day, De Bané, Downe, Fairbairn, Finnerty, Fraser, Graham, Hubley, Jaffer, Kenny, Kolber, LaPierre, Lapointe, Lavigne, Massicotte, Merchant, Milne, Morin, Phalen, Poulin, Poy, Ringuette, Robichaud, Rompkey, Smith, Trenholme Counsell, Wiebe—32
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Atkins, Bacon, Banks, Beaudoin, Cochrane, Cools, Corbin, Ferretti Barth, Forrestall, Joyal, Kelleher, Kinsella, Kroft, LeBreton, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Meighen, Moore, Nolin, Prud'homme, Robertson, Spivak, St. Germain, Stratton, Tkachuk—27
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Mahovlich, Pépin, Plamondon—3
MESSAGE FROM THE HOUSE OF COMMONS
A Message was brought from the House of Commons with a Bill C-50, An Act to amend the statute law in respect of benefits for veterans and the children of deceased veterans, to which they desire the concurrence of the Senate.
The Bill was read the first time.
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading two days hence.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Bills
The Senate resumed debate on the Point of Order with respect to the long title of Bill C-49.
Debate.
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Pursuant to Rule 13(1), the Speaker left the Chair to resume the same at 8:00 p.m.
The sitting resumed.
MESSAGE FROM THE HOUSE OF COMMONS
A Message was brought from the House of Commons with a Bill C-45, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (criminal liability of organizations), to which they desire the concurrence of the Senate.
The Bill was read the first time.
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fairbairn, P.C., that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading two days hence.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Bills
The Senate resumed debate on the Point of Order with respect to the long title of Bill C-49.
Debate.
SPEAKER'S RULING
This point of order is quite similar to the matter on which we had a ruling earlier — similar enough that the principles are basically the same. It is something with which I should be able to deal, and I intend to rule now.
I have also benefited from the two-hour break in terms of having had an opportunity to review the matters that I have noted from the interventions, for which I thank all senators. I have also had a chance to consider the differences that are being put to me in terms of distinguishing this point of order from a similar matter where I ruled that there was no point of order, essentially because the deficiency complained of in the bill is something for the Senate as a whole to address and remedy by way of amendment rather than something that should be directed to the Speaker of the Senate in terms of having the matter taken off the Order Paper for procedural reasons.
In this case, the Senate has received a message from the House of Commons telling us that it has passed Bill C-49. Bill C-49 has received first reading in the Senate. The Senate has ordered that it be placed often the Orders of the Day for second reading. I recognize, however, that this initial stage is pro forma.
The point of order is essentially that the bill is deficient because the title is not complete and fully descriptive and that it is distinguished from the previous ruling on a similar matter. Honourable senators are asking me, in effect, to pass judgment on the decision of the House of Commons that adopted Bill C-49 and the way in which it was received by us and is presented here today on our Order Paper.
As Speaker of the Senate, I have no authority to rule on decisions of the House of Commons. This point is referred to in the previous ruling, and I would like to further substantiate it by referring to a newer text than the one we normally use. It is of no less authority, and it is of great interest to us. That is Marleau and Montpetit, House of Commons Procedure and Practice. I am looking at page 674, the section entitled "Passage of Senate Amendments (If Any) by the House of Commons.'' The observation is made there that, "It is not for the Speaker of the House of Commons to rule as to the procedural regularity of proceedings in the Senate and of the amendments that it makes to bills.'' I could go on because the section does refer to amendments, but I think by direct analogy it refers to the general principle of questioning what has taken place here by way of the procedures we have followed.
The principle followed in the other place is clear, and I think the rationale for that decision is the same for this place. We have no power to change or remedy, other than through amendment and through the sending of messages. Accordingly, I do not think this is something that the Chair has any power to remedy; rather, this is for the Senate as a whole to address in the way that it normally does — by message, indicating an amendment, and, of course, the Senate can amend the title to a bill.
My ruling on this question is that it is sufficiently the same as the matter already ruled on, that the same principles apply. The question is not for the Speaker of the Senate to address by way of having withdrawn a bill such as the one before us because of a deficiency in the title, but rather it is a question for the Senate as a whole to address, if it believes that it is necessary to do so, by way of amendment.
Accordingly, I rule that there is no point of order and that we now return to debate on Bill C-49.
Second reading of Bill C-49, An Act respecting the effective date of the representation order of 2003.
The Honourable Senator Smith, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Léger, that the Bill be read the second time.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kinsella, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No. 9 and 3 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Reports of Committees
Consideration of the Ninth Report of the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance (Supplementary Estimates (A) 2003-2004), presented in the Senate on October 22, 2003.
The Honourable Senator Day moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Biron, that the Report be adopted.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Oliver moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kinsella, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Order No. 2 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Banks, seconded by the Honourable Senator Spivak, for the third reading of Bill S-10, An Act concerning personal watercraft in navigable waters.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., for the Honourable Senator Hervieux-Payette, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Graham, P.C., that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Prud'homme, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stratton:
That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was negatived on division.
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Orders No. 2 to 6 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Stratton, seconded by the Honourable Senator Murray, P.C., for the second reading of Bill S-4, An Act to provide for increased transparency and objectivity in the selection of suitable individuals to be named to certain high public positions.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Cools moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Day, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Order No. 8 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Commons Public Bills
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Mahovlich, for the second reading of Bill C-250, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (hate propaganda).
After debate,
The Honourable Senator St. Germain, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Prud'homme, P.C., that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Second reading of Bill C-459, An Act to establish Holocaust Memorial Day.
The Honourable Senator Poulin moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fairbairn, P.C., that the Bill be read the second time.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Cools moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Prud'homme, P.C., that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
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Ordered, That all remaining Orders be postponed until the next sitting.
REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):
Report of the Correctional Investigator for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2003, pursuant to the Corrections and Conditional Release Act, S.C. 1992, c. 20, s. 192.—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-750.
Amendments to the Agreement for RCMP policing services made on June 29, 1993, between Canada and the province of Prince Edward Island, pursuant to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. R-10, sbs. 20(5).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-751.
Amendments to the Agreement for RCMP policing services made on April 1, 1995, between Canada and the province of New Brunswick, pursuant to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. R-10, sbs. 20(5).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-752.
Agreement for RCMP policing services made on April 1, 1998, between Canada and the province of Alberta , pursuant to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. R-10, sbs. 20(5).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-753.
Agreement for RCMP policing services made on April 1, 1998, between Canada and the province of Nova Scotia, pursuant to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. R-10, sbs. 20(5).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-754.
Agreement for RCMP policing services made on April 1, 1998, between Canada and the territory of Yukon, pursuant to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. R-10, sbs. 20(5).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-755.
Agreement for RCMP policing services made on October 1, 1994, between Canada and the province of Manitoba, pursuant to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. R-10, sbs. 20(5).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-756.
Agreement for RCMP policing services made on April 1, 1998, between Canada and the province of British Columbia, pursuant to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. R-10, sbs. 20(5).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-757.
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C.:
That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
(Accordingly, at 11:06 p.m. the Senate was continued until 2:00 p.m. tomorrow.)
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Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)
Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration
The name of the Honourable Senator Poulin substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Chaput (October 22).
Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights
The names of the Honourable Senators Chaput and Jaffer substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Jaffer and Chalifoux (October 27).
Standing Senate Committee on National Finance
The name of the Honourable Senator Maheu removed from the membership (October 27).